GTM Confessions: Truth About Being a Start-up Sales Leader
Stephanie and Kate talk about what it takes to work in a start-up, challenges facing sales leaders, how to think about measuring sales effectiveness, and more.
(upbeat music)
- Welcome to GTM Confessions,
where we share what it takes
to be a go-to-market professional today,
because it's freaking hard,
and it's far from the glamorous picture
that social media often paints.
Consider this show your weekly
go-to-market therapy session.
I'm your host, Stephanie Cox.
I have more than 20 years of experience,
and I've done almost everything
go-to-market related in my career.
In this episode, I chat with Kate,
Vice President of Revenue at Audience Plus,
about what it takes to work on a startup,
the challenges facing sales leaders,
how to think about measuring sales effectiveness,
and so much more.
- Welcome to the show, Kate.
I'm so excited to have you.
- I'm excited too.
Good to see you.
Thanks for having me.
- So, for those of you that don't know Kate,
she is the VP of Revenue.
So, all things tied to revenue at Audience Plus,
and what I really wanna talk about is sales initially,
and how it's different at a startup
compared to a more established company.
'Cause I think sometimes there's a perception that,
well, if you're good at sales at a large company,
like a sales force Adobe, you could come to a startup,
and it's the same.
And you and I both know that's not the case.
So, talk to me about how you've seen it be different.
- For sure, I heard it referred to recently on LinkedIn
as the Magic Rep, which I had never heard before,
which I was like, of course in love with,
'cause that's like just convenient for me.
But yeah, it's extremely different.
And I've been at enterprise, on enterprise teams,
run enterprise teams, and then been progressively smaller
and smaller startups.
And now, being really part of a founding team,
and around from the beginning,
I can, I think, speak pretty confidently
to how, like, how and why it's so different.
And I think it comes down to just,
everything is experimental all day.
Nothing is done yet already.
And that's like whether you're a leader or an AE,
or whatever it is.
Like, if you need a resource, guess what?
Like, it doesn't exist.
If you're looking for a narrative or a deck or a talk track
that you can just come in and memorize
and then learn how to personalize,
guess what?
You first, you have to build it
because it doesn't exist yet.
And then depending on where you are on your product,
product market fit, journey too.
Not only once you create those assets,
or get it down and know what you're selling
and start getting good at it,
it has to change again.
And because you haven't figured it out yet.
Like, we're finally at a place in our business
where we've got that now
and it does get a little bit easier,
it gets harder in other ways.
But like, yeah, just because you have figured out the story
doesn't mean you're telling it right
or that that's the story.
So always having an openness and understanding of like,
should I be doing this entirely differently?
And you know, there's some ways to know
whether or not that's the case
and whether or not it's working.
But, and then it's also just like nobody knows you.
So there's an incredible burden.
Like everyone's a bit of a marketer
from a very early stage as well.
So it's just, it's a lot, it's a lot.
Yeah.
- Well, I love that you said that you kind of have to come in
and build everything.
'Cause I think oftentimes people think,
well, you're going to onboard a new team of burn
teach them everything.
And yes, but not everything exists.
There's not a process for everything.
There's not decks for everything.
You're releasing new product functionality
and things are changing.
You're constantly iterating on messaging.
It's not this kind of like beautiful little design box
that we give someone.
We're like, here, go do this.
- Completely.
Yeah, when I joined, my mind tends to work
in like wanting to build a process for things
because then I don't have to like maybe F with it again
or I can like just then it's done.
And knowing I'd be bringing on a team at some point,
there was like a lot of whole to document things early on
until I realized like, okay, I gotta stop doing this
'cause this is like, yes, this is such a waste of time
because it's all changed already.
And I can't keep updating all, like this is silly.
So finally let that go.
But yeah, that's a big part of it.
- It's interesting that you say that
'cause I do think we're all conditioned to like,
especially in a startup environment
to think about when you start scaling
and to document the processes
and like create the training materials, which like yes,
but also.
- Yes, but also like, yes, we'll just slow down
and like, it's okay that not everything is in fact,
it shouldn't be scalable.
Like nothing should be scalable for a while.
And that's like takes a minute to really take that in
properly, I think.
- Well, I get everyone else on board with it too,
especially like not just your kind of like team
that you and colleagues that you work with,
but also like a board who wants to think about,
it was always thinking about what's next.
- Yeah.
- Creating those scalable processes.
- 100%.
- Yep.
- Very true.
- So in this environment where it's very nebulous,
things are constantly changing, you're iterating.
What do you think is like critical skills
to be successful in that like startup sales environment?
Because I think oftentimes people think,
"Oh, I'm really good at sales, I like doing it."
And then they come into these environments
and they're surprised, shocked,
they don't realize like everything that they have to do
or how much they constantly have to iterate
on what they're doing as the company
is honestly being built.
- Yep.
- You know, I think,
I think it helped for me for sure
that I have been doing this for a long time.
Now that's not true for all eighties or sales,
anybody who's gonna come into maybe a first
or second sales role at a startup.
But I'm like really used to hearing no from people.
Like it's just like part of it.
And it's in fact like it's a good thing.
No means like you have an opportunity to turn it
and do a yes.
Like there's always no before there's yes.
So like shedding the fear of that is the big deal
'cause just like, I don't care, you know?
Or like, I'll fix it, I'll turn it around
if it makes sense to do that.
And I trust that.
I think that's like, maybe that's just like confidence
in itself a little bit that I know how to have
those conversations and then prepared for them.
I think just like then,
curious like, you know, and I think that sales generally,
but it's like an internal like with your team
and you know, and external like that helps so much.
And learning your business that helps you learn everyone
else's while you're at it along the way
and being close with your own CEO.
And then I think just like, I don't know,
being just fearless again back to the no thing,
but like, I'm not afraid to fail.
It will just make me smarter.
Like it's okay.
You know, and you have to be willing to put on the work,
which is duh, but I think, you know,
for an A, especially someone that sells
that's come from an enterprise organization
that maybe seems to having meetings put on their calendar
for them, that is likely not going to be your reality.
So just being prepared, like even if you're told it will be
like, that's probably not true.
So being ready for the work.
Yeah.
- Well, I love what you said about being okay with no,
because I think in sales,
no matter where you're at, you hear a no a lot,
but I think you hear it more at a startup
'cause you're trying to figure out ICP,
we're finding it, you're trying to figure out who to buy,
who's gonna buy when they're gonna buy.
And additionally, like you don't have this brand recognition
that so many larger companies have.
So oftentimes you hear no, because they just don't know
who you are.
100%, yeah.
It's like, it's so much education.
And it's one of those things too,
where there's like a 101 for a sales call
that like exists for everybody.
It's how everybody gets trained, I feel like.
And yeah, there's iterations to it
and it changes over time when there's new methodologies
and all these things.
And it's cool, it's great, but, and it should evolve.
But also there's just like this very basic level of like,
you don't wanna have these monologues on a sales call.
Like a lot of even like recording software is like,
you know, start yelling at you.
If you've talked too much or if you,
but the thing about being in this kind of role
is that there's so much education that comes along with it,
especially if you are even somewhat of a category creator,
where you're not just like another solution for,
I don't know, you know,
call recording software let's say, 'cause I brought it up.
Or like something that people know
that they have a line item for it's in their budget.
Like, and so you kind of have to throw some of those things
out the window that you know you're maybe not supposed
to do in this scenario also,
because this is just a different ballgame that you're playing.
- But I think that's an important differentiation
because oftentimes, right, you were taught to jump
on those first calls and do discovery and ask questions.
And the person you were talking to is like,
I don't know what you do.
- Yes.
- Can you please tell me what you do?
Because they're not, until you start to build a brand
and then demand's created from that,
you're typically the one reaching out to them saying,
I think you have this problem that I can help you solve.
Let me talk to you about the problem.
- 100%, yep.
And it's like, it's how most of my calls have started
and my time, like where I am today, I would say,
is that just like, tell me about what you do.
And then of course you've got to weave the discovery in there
and all the other things you now have to be
have to be true to treat a prospect properly
and someone that's taken their time with you.
But yeah, there's some differences to it for sure
when you do it in this kind of situation.
- Well, and one of the things I always loved
about when we work together is you do love to turn nose
into yasas.
You think of them as like, not now's versus permanent nose.
And I think that's such an important differentiation
in the kind of like startup scale up world is most of the time,
it's you're doing outbound to these people
or you're getting introductions from other people
and they weren't looking for you,
they don't have a line item for you,
especially if you were, you know, this kind of new category
or a new product offering that they didn't know existed.
And so I think that's the part about being curious
that you mentioned earlier is so key
to being able to do that.
- Yeah, it's really true.
It's, you know, I think part of it has just been like,
and you know, you don't wanna,
like if I know someone's a good fit,
if I know we could help,
that's when I'm gonna work to turn that nose into a yas.
Sometimes it's just not,
that's likely where I'm not gonna be spending my time anyway.
And that's, you know, so important in the startup scenario,
but yeah, for sure, it's, it's just part of the evolution
of a conversation like this where, you know,
you're gonna try to talk yourself out of buying something
before you talk yourself into doing it
and being part of that is important.
- Yeah, well, and I think that's one of the big differences
when I think about like selling in a startup
versus selling in a more established company, right?
An established company, your kind of first call
is all about qualifying them in or out, right?
Do you have the line, do you have the buying authority?
Do you have the budget?
And you can't really do that in a startup environment.
So I think it's just completely different.
So obviously just kind of the entire sales process
and figuring out how it's gonna work for your business
is a challenge.
What are other challenges that you think someone faces
in a sales role at a company that's a early stage?
- Yeah, I think it's hard to get the attention
or the time of day.
And I'm trying to like, you know,
there's a leadership aspect to it
that I'm kind of like putting aside maybe a little bit
for this answer, which is just like thinking of it
from an AE perspective, but it's really hard
to get the time of day from anyone else on your team
and not in like a toxic problematic way even like,
you know, we've had the greatest culture.
We're a small team and a small team means that like,
if you need something done,
you gotta get scrappy and find a resource to do it.
Like again, and I touched on this earlier a little bit,
but like, you know, sales,
we always want like the perfect customer story
or the perfect asset that's gonna help support
what it is that we're doing.
And it's like, it takes them getting used to where you're like,
okay, we don't have that.
I can't ask for it.
No one's got time to spin it up
or even like the means to do that right now today
because maybe even like,
we don't have formalized customer stories yet.
So like, how can I support that actually getting done then?
Maybe like, you know, what do we think about having that written
and who could do that?
And like, sometimes you're really just like actually outsourcing.
I mean, I have a surprising amount of sales calls
where I'm the prospect because I'm like, okay,
is there a solution for something that I can just take care of?
It doesn't maybe fall under my technical job description,
but like, it would be a difference maker.
So like, you just have to be,
I'm trying to raise the same scrappy
'cause I feel like that's such a like,
goes hand in hand with the startup conversation.
But yeah, it's that.
It's just like being extremely resourceful
because no one has time to give you the extra time
or why you need.
That's not to say the coaching, you know, here and there,
but it's kind of like a pick your battle scenario,
I think on a small team.
- Yeah, that's why I like to say part of being successful
in a startup is doing the job that's needed,
which is may not be the job you were hired for.
I think that's what you just described is,
there's a lot of things that you're gonna realize you need
that maybe in a larger organization,
another team would do that you're just gonna have to figure out
and things that other people are gonna need help on
that you maybe have done in the past,
but it aren't part of your current job responsibilities
that you can just step up and kind of help.
Everyone is truly working together to figure it all out
as the plane is being built while it's in the air.
- That's exactly right, yes.
So we talked a little bit about like establishing processes,
documenting everything.
Well, let's talk about kind of the next part of that,
which is like pipeline.
It is the most important thing at a startup.
It is also, I think, probably the most frustrating
and challenging thing at a startup
because it is constantly evolving
and you don't have a ton of good data when you get started
even as you grow 'cause your product evolves,
that where you can create predictable forecasting.
So how do you think about creating pipeline,
forecasting in a way that is maybe also
like directionally accurate
and not going crazy while you're doing that
and trying to share that with your CEO,
with the board who want predictability
and a plane that is in the air and still being built.
- Yeah, this makes me laugh because
it's an art form.
This is a benefit of an art form
'cause there's the right answer
and then there's like the reality.
And then it's like a matter of figuring out
how to bridge those to the best that you can
with what you have to work with.
I think, you know, in any,
and like in every sales role I've ever been.
Let's say sales leadership probably,
but you can waterfall all day.
And like I do, like I know based on our wind, right?
And how much pipeline we need
and how many meetings that equates to based on the race.
Me and I know ourselves like going thin
so I know what we need in order to produce acts.
And that's not a difficult math.
And then you're like, okay, you can dig a layer deeper
and you're like, what are the sources for meetings
that convert better?
And how we focus on those to make sure we're feeding
the feeding myself really ultimately.
But, and then you know,
but there's a, at the end of the, like,
so you can do all that.
There's only so many levers you can pull.
With very finite resources in a startup.
So it's kind of a situation where like even if I,
okay, so like I do all that work and I'm like, okay,
here's the number reality tells me is attainable right now.
Okay, so what can I do to affect that?
Right, first of all, like, can I throw more money at this,
more time at this, do we need to get in market?
Do we need to, whatever?
And like often there are things that can be done always.
And like, you know, but like to a point
and also like considering resources are extremely strapped.
And so it's, and then it's a little bit of a game of just
like, okay, what's the number that like I absolutely can't go,
like say we're gonna go below?
Like what's just like looks right and pretty?
'Cause I could never walk into the boardroom
and justify this number in a million years.
But like what also am I not gonna like put myself
in a tough spot by over promising?
So you know, it's a bit of a, again, an art form.
I will also say though, like again, I kind of laugh
and I love doing that work.
I think the waterfall, I think all that modeling
and all that data and those numbers are so fun.
I love that part of my job.
But at the end of the day, like our forecast
is our plan is our runway and is our forecasted NRR.
Like there's really not like just tell me
what number you need me to hit.
And then let me like let me,
doesn't look like cute when I'm asked what we're gonna hit
'cause I'm like, let's just save a little bit of time.
Just tell me what you need for me
and what we've committed to in our plan
and like let me find a way to get there
and that's when I'll model it and that's when I'll figure out
what I can do to make sure we get there.
And you know, sometimes we blow it out.
Like we've had like two of our best quarters in a row
and like that just keeps continuing to happen.
So like there, you know, it's not all,
it's not like a big negative party by any means,
but it's like a little bit of like a pool there
and to be like putting together my forecast.
It's like just maybe what you want.
We'll do my best.
- So I love that 'cause it's true.
Well, it's true.
And I think it's, I love when you say there's kind of
like the right answer and then there's reality
'cause I think, you know,
I think what it boards wanna hear is that we have
this really well-defined process
that where we can forecast with great certainty
what's gonna, we can make commits
of what's gonna close and all these things
that we can pull forward deals and I'm like,
okay, the reality is like best case,
best case is like all of this closes.
Worst case, none of it closes.
And the reality is somewhere in the middle
and we're still trying to figure it out.
And over time it gets better, right?
But I think because there's so much iteration
and ICP, the product, the pricing,
we can even talk about like market conditions
that have changed, that changed dramatically over time
that you can't force economy.
It's hard to kind of get into that predictability
that I think everyone wants startups to have
that I think fundamentally don't exist.
So I love what you think about,
tell me what the, tell me what's in the financial model.
What is like the bare minimum that we need
and from like a cash runway standpoint?
And I think that's important.
I also think it's really, really important
for sales leaders and marketing leaders and the CEO
at startups to work on that together.
I think oftentimes the financial plan
is kind of put together in this vacuum
and then like you're told, hi, your sales goal is this.
We need to three act, you know,
it's what triple, triple, double, double,
like we need to do this and that's great.
But then there's reality.
Reality is like here's what I think I could actually
reasonably deliver with the resources that we have,
the market that we have, what we've been able to prove.
I will strive to go above and beyond this.
But if you want to talk about like what should be
the bare minimum that you can feel confident
to build a model off of, here it is.
- Yeah, yeah.
I think more of that needs to happen.
'Cause I think that's where companies end up
putting unrealistic quotas on sales leaders and AEs.
And then marketing's, you know,
expected to help drive demand for an unrealistic quota
for sales and it just isn't successful.
And it's just, I think it really hurts culture
when you do it that way.
- It does hurt culture.
I also think like with risk and all those things are true.
I think with respect to a startup,
there is a degree of like, I don't know,
I don't think this has ever been harder than it is today.
And everybody's competing right now more than ever.
And for attention, if not, you know,
also the same buyer or the same budget or whatever.
With AI, it just, it just never been tougher.
And the reality is like, the runway is what it is.
And also, or like, you know,
if you're on attractive profitability
and don't wanna fundraise,
like those numbers just are what they are.
So I do think like part of the startup team mentality
means like you brace yourself and you do what you gotta do
to get there and you have to go the extra,
whether that's just like harder or smarter or whatever.
Like, you know, you've gotta have a good team
that can support being told what the number is
and finding a way to it.
Because I do think more often than not,
like in a perfect scenario,
there is alignment on what those numbers look like.
I think more often than not for a lot of teams today,
it's just like, this is what it is,
or we're not here anymore.
So it is, it's how to like handle,
handle that and not go into panic mode
and build your way to it.
- Well, and I think one of the things
that you just said around, like you're competing
for attention and for dollars in the past, you know,
a few years ago, it was you were competing for that
against competitors.
Now it's like you're competing against that,
at least if you're selling software,
against all other software that exists as well as--
- 100%.
- Even resources and it's really challenging.
And I don't know if everyone has caught up
to what that's like across any size of company,
let alone what it's like in a startup
when you don't have the brand recognition,
you don't have the resources to build or the time honestly
and runway to do that successfully.
- Yeah, although I think like it's so hard.
I think like sometimes we remind each other
that like, you know, there are a lot of bigger,
more well-known brands in the last couple of years
that don't exist anymore or have taken it on the nose
to merge or have been acquired on pennies on the dollar,
if that, you know, because of these huge fund raises
in these huge rentals in these huge teams
and all these things and it's impossible back out of that
once you're there.
So I think there is also like a bit of a,
we're like, as hard as this is, we consider ourselves lucky
as often as we can manage that, you know,
we like are doing this now today
and have the opportunity to do it the way that we are
instead of kind of being stuck.
Like I think some brands that came before us are right now.
- I think there's a lot of brands that are in that position
even right now, which is really hard.
So kind of tied to goals, I know you've, you know,
I've been in the situation, you've been in this situation.
What do you do when you have a board
that once you had a triple, triple, double, double
and grow, grow, grow and the reality is
you only have so much pipeline to work with.
When you pull things forward, that means now you have a gap
and like the next quarter, the next two quarters.
How do you try and have like those realistic sales target
and like quota conversations that, to help them understand
like it's not that you don't want to have to hit
these huge numbers, but the, you want to also set
like realistic expectations of what's going to happen.
- Yeah, I think this is where like data comes into play so well
and I think this is where lucky that like I have,
like I have the ability to manage, gather like own this part
of our business and A.E. of course, maybe isn't having
a board conversation anyway, but it's in a tougher position
to kind of justify that delta a little bit.
But I think like understanding what that delta looks like,
calling it out, like here's where we are today,
here's where we came up short, maybe in pipeline last quarter
and therefore that's what this quarter looks like realistically.
Here are, again, like our best sources for me.
Here's what closes when we got them on the line
and here are the following, here's like what,
here's how the numbers break down,
here's what we're going to need incrementally
in order to make it happen and quickly because of sale,
like so, you know, we've got this month
that it's extremely important to start this conversation.
So we've got time for the quarter
and like this is how we're doing that.
And so it being like just like extremely,
I think very proactive both with communication
and what we're doing about it.
I think the bigger problem is like the surprises.
So, you know, it's like, it's not a fun conversation
no matter what, but it's worse to over promise
and under deliver than just a like,
and duh, but like then to say like, hey,
here's like we've got, we've identified a gap.
Here's how we're working a result already today.
And here's how we're holding ourselves accountable to that.
And here's what we're going to adjust maybe as well
if like we're falling off track of that.
So, and then you got to do it.
But I think like the beginning of that
is like having good data that tells you those things.
So I'm a pretty, I'm a pretty big like stickler
with like Salesforce cleanliness as my team knows.
And, but it's for a reason and it's because then
it allows me to speak intelligently about my business
and be able to address those things and answer questions
and not like sound like an idiot
'cause I don't know the reality of what's going on
or can't identify those problems.
- Yeah.
So what metrics do you find are most essential then
for measuring like sales effectiveness at the stage?
- Yes.
- So I think ultimately G-R-R is actually like the biggest thing.
I think it's also the toughest,
like it's the toughest at a startup.
And that is like how much are you,
and you don't want to just be replacing churn with more deals.
Right?
Like that doesn't solve anything.
You want to be continuing to growing,
retaining the revenue that you have
and adding on top of that.
So like, but you know, talked about product market
fit earlier, that can be hard to do for the first couple
of years, potentially first year, first whatever it is
because you've not like quite figured out
the right way to do it yet.
That number identifies whether or not you're starting to,
I think first of all, like what's happening with renewals
is the signal for whether or not you're selling the right way.
So that's a big, a big, big thing.
And then I don't know, the other things are just like
some of the more basic, I think stuff,
they're still really finding makes sense and whatever,
but like a CV, how much are you selling for?
What's your win rate?
What percent of meetings booked if you're measuring that way?
Which is, I think the way it should be measured are
and in a close one and like knowing what's good
and what you're aiming for and knowing again,
and like as you get a little bit smarter
and a little bit more sophisticated,
what do you need in terms of pipeline?
What has been your like month over month
or quarter of quarter average in terms of meetings booked
and where have those meetings come from?
And what can you do to maybe automate some things
and channels a little bit better
so maybe you can focus on some other areas?
So just like following the journey of where the revenue
is coming from beginning to end is really important
and then again paying really close attention
to renewal cycles and who's happy and who's sticking with you.
- So when do you think about, you mentioned renewal cycles,
where do you think in a startup,
renewals should sit because oftentimes you have like
a sales team which is responsible for bringing new customers,
customer success is responsible for retaining and upselling,
but so much of what you're trying to figure out
is not just how to bring on new customers
but how to make sure you're bringing on
the right customers long term.
So yeah, and I know it's different for every organization
but how are you thinking about that today
and how would you suggest others think about it?
- Yeah, I mean, it's definitely,
we're lucky we've got like an all-star CS leader
shout out Clayton who is experienced
and owns the number ultimately.
We spend a lot of time one by one.
In fact, I have that meeting this afternoon.
Like going through customers one by one
and just talking about like where we are,
we've got a bit of a matrix we've been able to build
that takes into consideration like product utilization
and then just like the things you can't quantify
like how much do they like us?
Like, you know, there we have that helps us measure
like who is maybe at risk a little bit
'cause that can fall into a different,
a couple different buckets
and how you identify those individuals.
But it's, I mean, it sounds like so cliche
but it's such a team effort.
I would say probably like least of all mine,
although I'm bringing in the initial business,
I truly have to like kind of and I stay involved
and I'm in market a lot.
We do a lot of like customer dinners and visits
and all those things, but I largely have to focus
on top of funnel for us to continue to hit those goals
but our CEO is hugely involved in our customer meetings
and journeys and then also I didn't say
but our CS leaders also our product leader
which I think is also just extremely beneficial.
Would it be great if his workload didn't look like that
and that was two people's roles?
Yes, it would still be extremely important
that both of those roles are very, very much involved in
in the customer relationship
because of how much that affects signals ultimately.
- Well, I know you just mentioned how your CEO
and your CS leader and you are involved in customer knows
but how do you think about the roles that they can play
like in the initial sales process?
Like when do you think about bringing someone in?
- Yeah. - And does that always happen
or does it really depend on the situation?
- Definitely dependent on the situation.
Our sales cycle length is often fairly short.
It's not unheard of to have a turnaround to be within
a week or two by any means and we've even had like
significantly shorter than that at times
because if it's a good fit, it's a really good fit
and it like makes so much sense kind of thing.
So, and also I think just like in this world of
self service and information and like,
if I hear one more person tell me,
no one wants to talk to a sales person,
you know, like kind of process you have to be as easy
as possible to buy from.
And that means like, I tackle it all
in a first-meltz meeting.
Like you're gonna get pricing, you're gonna get a demo
and like thankfully our product,
we have a lot of enterprise customers.
So it's not that it's not an enterprise solution,
it's just like there's not like intense systems
and data and things that we're working with
that are scary which is what makes this possible
and makes it lucky for me,
which is 'cause it's a lot more fun for me personally
in this scenario, but like we move pretty fast.
So all that say like a lot of the time,
it's really just me that's doing it.
And then everybody comes in, you know,
when we do like a knowledge transfer,
everybody's involved in that conversation.
Our CEO, our product and sales leader
is involved in that conversation.
And then in probably about like,
I don't know 75% of the time,
we're all able to make the kickoff as well.
Like our CEO is involved in those calls too
as much as possible.
I will bring in the CEO though,
and this is a little bit of a startup thing too, I think.
Like, you know, sometimes I might not be the best person
to have the conversation though.
Like if I am talking to another CEO founder,
maybe Jonathan as the CEO founder should be having
the conversation and like I have to like let my go
of my pride and be fine with it,
which I'm over at this point.
Sometimes I'm like, I wish I owned this
'cause you're not like doing what I want you to do.
But he's pretty good about listening to me.
But so, you know, if anything,
it's usually like passing things off to him
or being like, I'm adding you to this meeting
and letting you take it.
And also just like for better or for worse,
sometimes there's like cues about like maybe the,
who the person is, you know, my founders and well,
not gonna like go on and on about, you know, that today.
But like sometimes he's the better person
to have the conversation,
depending on who the person is,
if it's the best interest in business.
So, and then also like just the typical maybe
if I've got like an entire leadership team,
just to balance things out,
balance things out, I'll have him join me.
Just so it's not just me maybe,
but I'd say like, you know, seven out of 10 times,
maybe even more than that, it's just me
and I'm not bringing anybody else in.
- So we've talked a little bit about some market conditions
and how they can impact sales.
How, and it's more crowded than ever right now.
What role do you think market conditions
just in general are playing right now
and how can you attempt to combat them
because they are so unpredictable?
- Yeah, that's such a tricky one because it's very real.
And you can ask anybody that is an enterprise staff,
same particular today, but a lot of other ecosystems as well.
Like it has a real impact, a real significant impact.
And I think everybody,
I mean, I think like for better for worse COVID helped
normalize that a little bit in that like,
are and not, you know,
there's a difference between the board understanding
that that's true and like giving you any room
to speak to that being true.
But I think at least like an outcome of the last few years
we've all been through has given the like kind of communal
understanding that like this shit's hard right now.
And it's hard for everybody right now.
But at the end of the day, it doesn't fucking matter.
Sorry, bye.
It doesn't matter.
So you can, 'cause it's like,
and I think it's ingrained in me too,
just from like time and doing this like,
you have to take ownership for what has gone wrong.
And like as much as the market is the elephant in the room
and there's always gonna be some mention of like that.
And I think it comes out by way of like,
here's the customers we've lost
'cause they've merged with each other.
Or like, here's the customers we've lost
'cause they went out of business.
So like, I can't affect that at all.
I wish I could have kept an emphasis.
I'm super busy over here.
So like, you know, I think like the,
it comes out in a variety of ways.
But again, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.
Everybody's in the same boat.
I think there's like pros and cons to the stage of business
that people are in today and whether or not
that makes this easier or harder to get through.
And I think you could argue both sides of that
for everybody right now.
But it is just like a lesson in like,
put your head down,
maybe get off LinkedIn for a minute
and just like, keep going.
And think about how to break through the noise.
And then just like think about, you know,
if you're lucky enough to sell a solution
that is a difference maker from a business perspective,
which hopefully, you know, we all are,
we all know that's not true
or else there's a lot of competition for similar things.
But like, if you focus on like what people are,
what the pains are that can help people solve
the issue that they have that's like impactful
to their bottom line.
And you have relentless focus on that
and relentless focus on your ICT.
You gotta do what you gotta do.
- Well, and I think your perspective that,
you know, your example of there's companies
that are getting acquired merging together,
there are companies going out of business,
there are things happening, you know,
politically, economically, that are drastically
changing the landscape that we as software leaders
can do absolutely nothing about.
- Right. - With that, with that said,
I think, you know, there's the recognition of,
hey, these are market conditions impacting our business.
Here is what I'm going to do as a result,
not to fix those problems 'cause I can't,
but because like, hey, if we're getting a single lot
of customers go out of business,
I, you know, obviously our insurance going up,
we're gonna need to bring in more sales
to kind of compensate that from a revenue perspective.
Here's my plan to try and tackle that problem.
And I think that it's just an interesting flip
on this situation 'cause I think sometimes people want to say,
well, you know, use market conditions,
we can't do anything and unless you sell
into like one specific industry or buyer
that has been like a decimated,
chances are you can do something,
it's just not fixing that problem,
it's looking for a completely different solution
to address what the problem caused for business.
- Yeah, 100%, 100%.
Yep.
And there are those industries that have been decimated.
Like that exists too,
where like there are some that just like, hey,
but I think like taking the ownership
of controlling what you can add is all you can do.
And I think like emotionally and then also like,
quantifiably like that is the only way to get through it also.
- 'Cause it is a roll-up of Sir,
being an early stage company.
There are days, I know you and I've talked about this before
where you are like so excited,
you're gonna like eventually get acquired
for like billions of dollars and change the world.
And then there are days where it's like,
something happens like in the market
that you have nothing to do and you're like,
you didn't see it coming and it's like being punched
in the face.
And then 10 minutes later, you have a great sales call.
It's just constant up and downs.
And I think having like a positive like optimistic perspective
is important with also like a sense of realism.
So that balance I think is really critical
with every minute going on in the world today.
- That's 100% sense of realism,
like maybe sets a few more.
- Yes. - A little bit too.
- Oh shit.
- It does.
- There's only so much you can do.
- There is.
So last question for you,
what is your biggest go-to-market confession?
, okay.
I was thinking about this this morning
from a LinkedIn post speaking of LinkedIn that I saw.
I, and I don't know if like maybe this is like
a little bit more on the personal side.
I refuse to believe and I refuse to quote anyone,
anymore ever again.
Well, I have a team member at some point
who's tasked with doing that.
I don't know, never say never,
but like I have not made one cold call
at the Juice or Audience Plus.
I will not be doing it.
Maybe I've done so many that I can't anymore.
I've reached my limit.
Maybe I get so many that I refuse to believe.
And like I know people do it really well.
Maybe I just suck at it to you at this point.
I guess just not having done it in a long time.
And I don't, you know, but like I'm not going to.
- I'm not doing it.
- I applaud you for that.
Because I think it goes back to like the market.
Like I think things have changed.
That worked really well, but now it's,
and I think part of it's like software that has caused it.
This is why I feel like sales and marketing tech
gets regulated by the government so often
is because like we get new software
and then we make like poor choices.
- Yeah.
- And they have to do something about the poor choices
that we've made.
But right now it's just like there's so many people,
you know, that are constantly calling
with like parallel dialers and automated email sequences.
And it's, I don't know who you are.
I don't know where you got my information.
I am not interested.
Please stop calling me.
- Yeah, I know that there's a way to do it well.
- I do and I have done it for the record.
Like, you know, 15 years ago or whatever.
Well.
- So it was a different world.
- But it was a different world.
And also, but also like, I don't know.
If your first like opportunity
for an impression with someone is that you're annoying.
That's just not like there are better ways today
and smarter ways to like identify where to spend your time.
That's not.
I'm not trying, like, I'm not gonna bug people.
It's annoying.
Like there's no way around it.
- Yes.
- That's not how I want to start a relationship with somebody.
So I just, I won't do it.
I do, I will say though, like I really respect people
that do it all day because I have done it
and it's the worst and it's extremely hard work.
But it's not happening.
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