Is There About to be a Mass Exodus of CMOs?

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All right.

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Okay.

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I, this, this is very, very much behind the curtain, but.

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I want to talk to you a little bit about.

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Something that I've been hearing a lot from the.

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CMO brain trust.

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And it's really, really interesting to me, especially as someone who's like.

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Aspired to be a CMO for a long time.

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I know you have to.

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Now you're on the founder side, but I know that like that was the path that you

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were on for a long time.

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Most people who make it to the CMO seat.

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Have had that same kind of like career aspiration, a career arc.

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Now that a lot of the people who are in my.

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In my peer set, our CMOs in my conversations with them.

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I've been more and more hearing them say.

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I don't want to do this again.

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And I'm obviously not going to like go through the list of people who have

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heard that from.

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But a lot of people are like, yeah, like the, the job.

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It's been going good.

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Like it's, it's, you know, I've learned a lot.

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You know, the team's great.

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But then I'm like, what's next for you?

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And they're like, I don't think I want to be a CMO again.

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I'd rather go do something else.

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Either whatever, like part of the marketing stack they came up in, whether it

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be like, you know, field and brand and events or whether it was in demand or

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whether in product marketing or whatever.

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They're like, I want to go back to that a little bit.

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Or people who are like, I want to do something completely different.

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Like now that I made it to this step.

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I've learned that maybe this isn't for me and I'm going to go do a complete

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career change.

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And that's just been like, at first it was just like one or two people talking

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like that.

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And now it's totally a pattern in my conversations with, with other CMOs in the

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space.

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And I'm curious, like, one, have you kind of been hearing the same sort of rumb

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lings?

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And then two, like what's your, what's your reaction to that?

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Yeah.

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There's a lot to say on this topic.

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I'll try to keep it succinct.

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Um, first of all, even going back several years, um, it's been widely

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publicized that the CMO 10 year at a company is very, very limited.

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Right.

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It's one of the smallest, shortest kind of runs within the exact three, 13

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months.

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Or I think actually I think it was like 11 months, like not even a year most of

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the time.

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Right.

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Then, you know, in recent news, you've seen like, I think it was like consumer,

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or C.B.G. companies are like big consumer companies.

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I think Donald's being one of them.

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I think Red Bull have fired their CMOs and are not backflowing them.

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They are decentralizing that role into specific kind of sub functions at the

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executive level.

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Um, so all this to be said, the CMO role has been probably since its existence,

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or at least in this digital Internet age that we're in.

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Um, widely, um, you know, under some, some pressure, I think in general.

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Now we're blind to that early career because we're young and hungry and

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ambitious.

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And we, uh, I think for a lot of us starting your career and marketing is hard

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enough.

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It's my person, like, it's hard to start a career in tech when you think about

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it.

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Because typically if you're not an engineer, you're coming in through an SDR

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program or some of these like early career roles and then to break it.

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And then to bridge and find your way into marketing or find someone that's

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willing to take a chance on you and marketing is actually quite difficult.

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Um, and I've had several conversations I'm sure you've had over the years of

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like, how do I get into marketing? Um, so, so you get into marketing and then

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you start enjoying it.

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Maybe it's your point. You find your sub function that you really like.

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Um, and then the further you get in your career, and I know you've got

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something to say about this, the less marketing you do.

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And the more time you're spending dealing with like the HR work, which is, by

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the way, it's part of the job.

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Like I'm not trying to like apologize for it or whatever. Um, but you're

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dealing with, you're almost like, like an ambassador to the rest of the

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business cross functionally or public facing kind of person.

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Uh, you're, you know, speaking on panels, doing podcasts like these. Um, um,

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you're managing up to the CEO, you're managing down to your team and making

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sure that their mental health is all good as well as their productivity, of

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course, which takes a big toll.

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Um, and depending on your company stage or where you're at, you might be doing

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a little less of the creative kind of zero to one type stuff and your job is to

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hit the number cheaper and more efficiently than you did last year.

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Um, so I've got some more things to say, but what I'll say is, you know, I

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definitely want to hear your thoughts on this, because we've talked about it is

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CMOs don't really do a lot of marketing.

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Mm hmm.

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Is my, yeah, that's my hot, that's my hot tick.

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Yeah.

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No, I don't even, I don't even think that's hot tick.

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I think that's just facts.

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Like I do less marketing, like what you'd consider to be core marketing work

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now.

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Then I probably have in my entire career.

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And, um, I think that that, that realization is pretty jarring.

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One, it's like jarring because it's not probably what most people expect.

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Yeah.

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Two, it takes time to figure out like what stuff you're going to be rewarded

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for doing, like when you get into the new role and you're like, okay, what,

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what, what things is the business actually need for me.

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It's like turns out they're totally totally different.

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Um, what I would say, and I feel very grateful that I enjoy this part of the

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job, but, um,

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I think like a lot of what the CMOs job is, is to like understand the market

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and what the customers are talking about and thinking.

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And to like figure out how to make sure that that is interlocked with the

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company's strategy very, very tightly all the time.

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But a lot of that's about like the strategic work and like, how do we talk

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about what we do to the broader market?

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And that's obviously a part of marketing.

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It was like messaging and positioning and like the company narrative and the

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company's story and making sure those things are aligned.

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But like it's definitely not like, you know, coming up with like the next great

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, you know, ad campaign, like, you know, obviously I'm in the approval process

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of that sort of thing.

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But like the team we're working on that stuff.

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Like, you know, when someone comes to me and they're like, check it out.

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We did this like, you know, landing page experiment where we tested, you know,

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we built five new versions of this and drove these conversions and here's what

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worked and here's what doesn't like.

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I'm, I used to be like the person in the middle of that.

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Now I'm just the consumer of it.

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And I'm just like, whoa, that's awesome.

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Like, great.

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Like, what did we, what did we learn?

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What are we going to do next?

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And I'm trying to help, you know, think about how we're going to ratchet those

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results up to, you know, our next most important goals.

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But it's really weird being not the person who's doing that stuff anymore.

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And the person who's really mostly focused on delivering a number and focused

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on the company level strategy.

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I think that transition is just hard, you know, especially people who are like,

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my identity is that I'm a marketing person.

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Yeah.

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And you just don't tell you that right on the way out.

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No, they don't tell you that like, you know, yeah.

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But I like what you said. You said something there about like, I'm grateful

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that I like this part of the job.

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And I think that's super important.

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That if the way I kind of envisioned it too, I love what you said about

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marrying kind of opportunity with company strategy and how we sort of like tie

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it together.

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Huge, huge part of the role.

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The other part I think about too, kind of like a, and forgive the sports

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analogy, but a little like a GM as well.

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In the sense that like, you have to find the marketers that are really good and

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put them in positions to win and to make an impact.

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And a lot of that does have to do with HR, right?

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In the sense of like, you know, finding compatible roles and people to fulfill

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those roles who are human beings and have their own kind of giftings and, you

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know, communication styles and whatnot.

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But your job is to effectively like put a team together that could be high

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efficiency, but high throughput, high output in order to achieve that

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opportunity that you're capturing.

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And then to defend that, to defend the actions of the team internally to un

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block them where necessary to advocate on their behalf.

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And for some people, they look at what I just said and they're like, that's not

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what I thought the job was.

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I thought I was going to, you know, really just like do a lot of more of the

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creative campaign work or the demand work or whatever.

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And, you know, to answer your original question, I think a lot of people are

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waking up to that and saying, I don't want to sign up for that, actually.

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Like, I don't get my energy off of that.

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I rather get my energy off of having my hands dirty in the actual programs.

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And that's great.

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I don't think there's any, I don't think this is a bad trend either.

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I think this is probably a good thing, net net.

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But that people are kind of like figuring it out as they get there.

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Well, yeah, because I think we've sort of like create, we've created this up

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into the right American dream expectation.

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By the way, this sounds so like privileged and weird to talk about, but like, I

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think it's okay for someone to have high ambition.

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I think that I want to be a top performer and also not want to be a CMO, but

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want to stay within their discipline, whether that's again event marketing or

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field marketing or product marketing or whatever and double triple down on what

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they're great at.

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And I think sometimes that there might be an internal lie or thought or

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perception that like that must mean I'm not moving up into the right in my

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career or whatever the case is.

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That's not necessarily true.

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I think you could be a world class event marketer and build a career off of

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that.

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That is very noble and something that one should be very proud of.

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Yeah, I think one of the, one of the things that's like kind of counter

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intuitive about the GM side of things is you kind of end, if you do it right,

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you end up firing yourself from the marketing job, right?

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Because you want to find people who are smarter than you at the domain

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expertise that you want to build on the team, right?

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And then very, very good people want to be high autonomy, high ownership.

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That means they need you a lot less than maybe before they work there.

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And they need to know that they're working on the right stuff at the right time

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and understand the company strategy, but the actual execution of the marketing

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stuff.

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And if you hire the right team, those functional teams don't really need you to

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be a part of their actual process, I would say.

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And so like the way I would like sum it up that I think a lot of marketers to

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deal with when they get to the CMO role is like, when you're like the top

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marketing executive, the job is way more about being an executive than it is

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about being a marketer.

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And that is for some people, I think just not where they want to be.

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I mean, it feels kind of like leaving your core competency not behind, but just

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like, there's not the focus of your day to day.

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And I think that combined with the pressure that's on a lot of marketers,

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especially people who get hired as CMOs from the outside,

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like a lot of the jobs that people are getting now are like turnarounds right

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it's like, why are they looking for CMO it's like okay the last one got fired.

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And are like pipeline is down 50% year over year. And so you're coming in to

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like change that.

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And like, that's just a really, really, really tough thing to do. And I think

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like a lot of the CMO jobs that are out there, they should they appear that way

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So then people who have some experience as a CMO are like, whoa, that was way

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different than I thought. Maybe it was way harder than I thought.

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And then the jobs that they're looking at to go continue to be a CMO are not, I

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would say, not like the ideal situation that you want to walk into.

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And so I think the fact that like a lot of companies are distressed, the jobs

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not really about marketing.

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There's tons and tons of pressure just like put short term results on the board

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instantly.

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So marketing is like so multidisciplinary now like you have to be able to do

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everything.

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Like it's just like, I think a lot of scenarios people are in are like set up

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for them to lose and they see that now.

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And then they're not getting joy out of it either so they're just like, why am

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I going to do this again.

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Yeah, it's like, now you're being a CMO is like really nuanced and like a lot

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of things have to be going in the right direction for it to be as rewarding as

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people think it's going to be. And like, I don't know about you.

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I put a very, very big premium on.

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So I like the team of people I'm with and I like the company and I like the

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customers and I feel like I have like established trust with with with folks

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like I'm putting a huge premium on that because you do you never like the space

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is so dynamic like you never know what's going to happen.

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And then I'm also, if I'm if I'm looking for a CMO job.

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I'm the whole thing is like about picking the company in my opinion, like you

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have to pick the right company in the right circumstances where you have a

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chance to be successful over the medium and long term.

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And like that that pool of companies that are probably worth joining to be the

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CMO of right now is probably a pretty small group, honestly, if we're being

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totally honest. And so that's right.

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So I think there's a lot of pressures on the role and it's, it's, most of the

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roles are not as as glamorous as you think they're going to be a huge chunk of

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them are probably not that much about marketing.

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And like I feel really grateful to be in the position that that I'm in I love

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my job I love my team I love the opportunity that we're tackling.

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But I when someone hops on the phone with me to do just a check in and they're

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like, yeah, I don't know if I want to do this again. I'm like, I totally get it

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. I totally understand why you would be in that position.

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Because it's not it's not always what it's cracked up to be. So, I'm you, I'm

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important.

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So I'm going to take an appointment here to about like, there's something

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happening right now in the market that is making this exacerbating all of this.

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Yes. And I talked about this a little bit at at golden hour.

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But if we look back at what we've been through over the last four to five years

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as a marketing community more broadly CMOs included as well as practitioners.

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